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  • ddriver - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    What's with those small return keys...
  • Olaf van der Spek - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Return keys?
    You mean the standard Enter key? It's the normal shape and size...
  • ddriver - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    http://i.imgur.com/sgfuu.jpg

    It is a frequently used key and it is only logical it's size is extended. Keyboard where it is a "single line" key are very uncomfortable.
  • Olaf van der Spek - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Some prefer an even bigger Enter, some prefer the bigger Backspace and \ being in the 'normal' location.
    A single-line Enter is already one of the biggest keys on the board..
  • ddriver - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    It boils down to whether or not you have a basis for comparison. Do you have to type a lot, and have you ever used an extended enter keyboard? It is a huge step back having to conform to a small enter key. Seems to be a US thing, another "convenience" like using imperial units together with other progressing states such as Liberia and Burma :)
  • Inteli - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Yes and yes. The extended enter key is horrible. More often than not I type a slash instead of backspace because the Backspace keys on those boards are tiny. ISO/EU boards aren't any better because their keys don't stretch far enough left to be easily hit by the pinky.

    Different strokes for different folks, I guess, but most of us here in the US have adapted to the standard ANSI layout, and I find it perfect for me.
  • ddriver - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Tiny backspace seems to be another US oddity like the tiny enter.

    https://deskthority.net/wiki/ANSI_vs_ISO

    The backspace is clearly not tiny, what's tiny is the left shift, which I find somewhat silly, since it is done only to accommodate a redundant slash key, already present on the keyboard elsewhere. Even if tiny it is not inconvenient for use with the pinky, so much so that I barely use the larger right shift, if ever.

    The extended enter is a must for me, I'd never purchase keyboards or laptops without it. Good keyboards with good layouts are very rare in my experience, I have like 20 keyboards collecting dust, simply because each of them failed to improve on or even match my favorite keyboard, which I kind of "stole" - my father's company got it with a high end IBM server which didn't really needed a keyboard, much less a good one, so I replaced it. 18 years later it still works flawlessly, it has survived my pro gaming days (mainly quake 3 plus some other FPS) and several books. Built to last, which is very rare today, with most products carefully engineered to break soon after their warranty runs out.
  • Inteli - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    If you look at the first picture you linked, you linked a modified ANSI board with a larger enter key, what Deskthority lovingly calls the "big-a**" enter key, and that was what I was referring to with the small backspace. An ISO board wouldn't work for me, since with my typing habits, I'd be pressing slash instead of enter, rather than slash instead of backspace.

    Clearly, we've learned to type on different layouts, and have grown different habits around them. I hit my enter key at its leftmost edge, which would make an ISO enter key an extra stretch for my habits. You obviously don't have such issues, and that's just fine.

    By the way, if this keyboard is ever sold in your country, I can practically guarantee that it'll have an ISO layout instead of an ANSI layout. American website, American standard layout.
  • ddriver - Saturday, June 11, 2016 - link

    Yeah, I recently watched a documentary about a community of oddballs in Turkey who spent all their lives walking on all four. They couldn't make them walk on their feet no matter what. And let me tell you, it wasn't like they were proficient walking on all four - they were very slow and awkward, like turtles. But still, its the way they prefer, cuz it is the only way they know.

    Unfortunately, while big PC vendors usually provide ISO layouts, this is very rarely the case with companies specializing in (decent, mechanical) keyboards. I suspect this is because their products, although exported to Europe, have not been manufactured with export to Europe in mind.

    My local retailer has currently about 30 mechanical keyboard models on sale, and currently one 2 of them come with the extended enter key, sadly they look ridiculous and don't look like they are convenient for heavy typers.
  • Inteli - Saturday, June 11, 2016 - link

    Your analogy implies that there aren't any proficient typers using ANSI keyboards.
  • ddriver - Saturday, June 11, 2016 - link

    My analogy implies that people can get used to anything, it does not apply the superiority of any particular keyboard layouts.
  • inighthawki - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    ANSI vs ISO layout. I believe the ANSI layout is commonly more popular than the ISO layout, even amongst people outside of the US.
  • TesseractOrion - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    I believe you are incorrect. Just cognitive bias favouring the US (non) standard - pretty common on US sites funnily enough... the rest of the world is considerably larger than the USA, tho 'merkins are loathe to admit it LOL
  • inighthawki - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    My conclusion was actually based on google searching of ISO vs ANSI layouts, and the general conclusion on forums and polls was there was a [generally strong] preference towards ANSI, even amongst ISO users.

    For example:
    https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/blog/2015/09/0...
    https://wlhlm.github.io/rmk-march-2015-survey/kb.h...

    From what I've read, the preference to the ISO standard is because it supports letters or keys simply unavailable on the ANSI keyboard, not because the actually layout is superior. Amongst English users, ANSI seems pretty dominant.
  • ddriver - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Popularity is usually synonymous with mediocrity.
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Just as a reminder, this is AnandTech.com. A United States based website.

    This isn't AnanTech.uk, or AnandTech.eu, for example. ANSI is the standard here, and you can take your complaints elsewhere.
  • LordanSS - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Welcome to the Internet, where people all over the world (mostly) have access to information.

    And AnandTech, US website you say? With so many of their editors being across the Atlantic Ocean, you still get to say that? Get a grip.
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Saturday, June 11, 2016 - link

    And... ANSI is still the standard here in the greatest country in the world.

    Get a grip, third-worlder.
  • TesseractOrion - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Haha agreed :-)

    The UK still has 'Imperial' units (in parts) but at least has a proper size 'Enter' key, thankfully!
  • MamiyaOtaru - Sunday, June 12, 2016 - link

    I bought a SteelSeries keyboard around 9 years ago and returned it the moment it arrived and I saw it had a large Enter key. That forced backslash up into the backspace key and every time I use a board like that, when I try to hit backspace I was getting backslash instead. (bought a keyboard from Deck instead, still going strong)

    It's all about what you are used to, and doesn't need to be couched in terms of "hurr USA so bad"

    Glad they are now providing what this market would consider a standard layout.
  • MamiyaOtaru - Sunday, June 12, 2016 - link

    *edit* more like 6 years ago (been a while anyway). Was the 7g. Fortunately the packaging was clear so I could see the layout before opening it. Yeah I'd seen pictures of it on the web, but I just figured they were shots of the board meant for non-US distribution. Nope!
  • Samus - Monday, June 13, 2016 - link

    Some people prefer a carriage return with a reduced backspace/backslash, others prefer an "enter" key with extended backspace/backslash keys.

    In the USA, the later is most common. But a few companies have historically favored the carriage return over the enter key, especially in Asian markets.

    The joke in IT has always been the Asian markets don't need such a large backspace key because they make fewer mistakes ;)
  • kaidenshi - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    A reverse-L shaped Enter/Return key pushes the backslash/pipe key either up into the Backspace key's area (making the Backspace smaller and highly error prone -- backslashes typed instead of characters backspaced), or else below the Enter/Return, cutting the right Shift key in half.

    Of the two, I'd prefer below, but in practice I never buy a keyboard with a reverse-L Enter/Return key. I like my full size Backspace and R-Shift, and I like my Pipe where muscle memory says it should be for piping *nix commands.
  • bigboxes - Sunday, June 12, 2016 - link

    Fully agree. I can understand ddriver's penchant for an enlarged Enter key. However, I hate small backspace keys and definitely prefer the ANSI layout. I've got a couple of Cherry keyboards (one Chinese/one US) and both have the ANSI layout. I would consider myself a heavy typer (MX Blue user here).
  • colinstu - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    A large US enter key = a tiny backspace key, which SUCKS. EU keyboards have a two row enter key in a slightly different shape & the backspace maintains its normal/large size.
  • TomSal74 - Wednesday, June 15, 2016 - link

    To each their own but since I'm so used to the (size/shape) of the enter key on this keyboard it honestly doesn't bother me (or hinder my gaming performance or comfortable in any way I might add).
  • Olaf van der Spek - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Wouldn't a TenKeyLess version or one with the numpad on the left make (more) sense for hardcore gamers?
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Really depends on the keyboard layout someone wants and is comfortable with.

    Some people use the numpad for keybinds or macros. Others use a multi-button "MMO" type mouse. Some people _always_ use the numpad for any number typing.
  • inighthawki - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Due to a really old and bad habit I play many FPS games using the arrow keys and the numpad provides some keys which are convenient for miscellaneous functionality.

    In addition, I also do a lot of programming and I almost always use the numpad for numeric entry. I find it far more convenient.

    Given that the numpad isn't really that large, it always struck me as odd that so many people are so passionate about finding a keyboard specifically without it - buying something that specifically has less functionality to save a few inches of desk space. To each their own - that's why we have variety!
  • Death666Angel - Saturday, June 11, 2016 - link

    "Due to a really old and bad habit I play many FPS games using the arrow keys and the numpad provides some keys which are convenient for miscellaneous functionality."
    That reminds me of my starting days! 12 years old, brand new Pentium III 500MHz computer with an Nvidia TNT 2 M64 model, which barely played Half-Life at 800x600. It was my whole pride, because I paid for it with all the money I'd earned and saved up at that point. A friend of mine brought over this game called Half-Life and was gushing all over it. He changed the key bindings to fit the arrow keys and the surrounding keys for crouching, jumping etc. So I grew up with that. It was years later that I saw the superiority of WASD. :D
  • kaidenshi - Saturday, June 11, 2016 - link

    My wife has gotten interested in playing Rust since she started watching me play, and she's never been a gamer so her instinct is to use the arrow keys for movement. That actually works for her, since she is hardcore left-handed and has the mouse on the left side. (I'm left-dominant but mostly ambidextrous so I use the mouse/kb like right-handed folks). Oddly enough, the hardest thing for her to overcome is using two fingers on the mouse; she normally uses her index finger on the left button and moves it to the right button when necessary. That just doesn't work for FPS style games.
  • MadAd - Saturday, June 11, 2016 - link

    Get her her own mouse she can swap the buttons on, leaving your one normal, its what I do when I'm teaching/sharing desktops with left handers.
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    >Blue lighting can be tiring for the human eye and the Apex M500 is blindingly bright at maximum intensity, so users will have to reduce it significantly for use inside dark rooms.

    Blue light, f.lux, and such are grand ol' meemees.

    >my eyes hurt from this blue light, maaaan.
    >this blue light is messing up my sleep, maaan, but yellow light is a-okay for helping me sleep.
  • ddriver - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Not only is it the possibly worst color to the eye, it is also the lease efficient energy wise - blue leds suck compared to other colors. It is a complete mystery why the industry keep shoving it down people's throats.
  • DanNeely - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Because it's the newest color. Red, green, and amber LEDs are old and boring.
  • inighthawki - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Dare I say, a professional look of white? I recently bought a corsair mechanical keyboard and opted for the RBG version solely so I could change the keys to white from the non-RGB version which is locked at red.
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    It's literally just a color dude. I don't buy all this garbage of "I have scientific proof that blue is bad for you". Yeah, go ahead and stand in line next to the loser telling me that gluten is bad, that carbs are bad, that cellphone radiation gives me cancer, etc.

    Literally everything is bad for you and will kill you down the road.

    I don't care at this point.
  • inighthawki - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    It's not that blue is bad for you, it's simply the hardest color for the human eye to see, and it's overall less energy inefficient to produce an output in blue that is as visible as other colors. There is a reason that night vision typically uses green, and it's not because blue or red are bad for your eyes, it's just because green is really easy for the eye to see and contrast against other shades.

    From a technical perspective he is completely correct - blue is not a wise color choice. From a manufacturing perspective, though? Not sure, maybe blue LEDs are the easiest/cheapest to produce. Power draw is likely also not their primary concern.
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    You do realize that all of that is thrown out the window, because the majority of buyers buy based on appearance, right?

    Blue LEDs are the most common on peripherals. Monitor on/off LED. Speaker on/off LED. Computer cases most often have on/off and HDD activity blue LED. It's pretty natural for people to buy the keyboard that matches what they already have going for them, and it's not as if they got RGB LEDs on their monitor and speakers, and such.

    I doubt anyone has ever looked at buying a backlit mechanical keyboard, noticed the blue LED and thought to themselves, "No way! I'm not going to buy something that's 'hard' for my eyes to see, and the inefficiency of using blue LEDs was an awful idea! And using these at night will ruin my sleep/wake cycle!"

    If you asked a manufacturer how many units sold of an several _identical_ keyboards, save for LED colors, you'd see that blue backlit keyboards sold hand over fist way more than any other individual color. It's in the manufacturer's best interest to not introduce too many models on the market and blue LED backlighting captures the majority of buyers anyways, so there's very legitimate logic going on here.

    You're overthinking this WAY too hard, man. The absolutely majority of users are just out there to get a black keyboard, to match their black peripherals and computer, and to match with LED color, too.

    You're in the minority if you're one of the few who cares about blue LED eyestrain, inefficiency, and sleep/wake cycle. And people of this opinion know very well that having an evenly lit desk, through an overhead lamp, is more ergonomic than backlit keyboards.
  • inighthawki - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    I think you're taking my reply way too seriously. I have nothing against blue LEDs, I'm just pointing out ddriver's statement is factually accurate, and that it has nothing to do with blue being *bad* for you, simply that it is less efficient. If people like the color blue then... great! Let them buy it.

    As for me, I have no issues with eye strain, efficiency, blah blah blah. I do, however, choose the most practical product for my needs, which is the one that offers better contrast. It doesn't hurt my eyes to see blue, but it's also a lot easier to see green or white.

    I also didn't say anything about impact on sleep/wake cycles, nor do I care.
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Sunday, June 12, 2016 - link

    >it has nothing to do with blue being *bad* for you, simply that it is less efficient
    And? I already commented that who the hell cares if it's less efficient or not? The absolute majority of people are buying based on looks alone, not because inefficiencies.
  • versesuvius - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    "Even so, the company was a little late into the mechanical keyboards market, as they opted to focus on advanced membrane-based keyboards instead. Until recently, the company has been offering just one mechanical keyboard, the Apex M800 with their own custom QS1 switches." ....

    Wrong. SteelSeries 7G was a mechanical keyboard with Cherry MX black switches, and was and still is one of the best mechanical keyboards ever made.

    http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/4368/steelseries_...
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    >ISO sized enter key
    Yeah, nah.
  • azrael- - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    All Steelseries keyboards, including their mechanical offerings, have, to my knowledge, also been available in US layout. Why anyone would willingly want that tiny Return key is beyond me though.
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    By US layout, I presume you mean ANSI. And secondly, no. the US version of the Steelseries 6G, 6Gv2, and 7G were all offered in the US in the ISO layout.

    The only thing remarkable is that despite Steelseries being one of the first on the mechanical gaming keyboard bandwagon with the 6G and 7G back in the day (IGN has a review of the 7G dating back to May 16th, 2008, over 8 years ago), this is the FIRST mechanical keyboard they've ever offered with a standard ANSI key layout.

    Even after they ditched the ISO layout in the US market, they pushed the awkward double-row spacebar, which again still wasn't standard ANSI key layout.

    Why is the standard ANSI key layout important?
    Because it's the only keyboard layout that almost every keycap set is almost guaranteed to be offered in. It's incredibly rare to find a full ISO layout keycap set, and even when you can find one, it's much more expensive than a comparable ANSI keycap set.
  • versesuvius - Saturday, June 11, 2016 - link

    ISO ("I" as in International)
    ANSI ("A" as in American) and (I'm freezin', It is 32 degrees)
    By the time you come to appreciate decimal based units of measurements and completely abandon the stupid lb, ft, ... and start freezing at 0 degrees instead of 32 degrees you will also come to appreciate the ISO keyboard layouts too.
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Saturday, June 11, 2016 - link

    Nah. Enjoy being a third-world country.

    I'll enjoy my superior keyboard standard, which is adopted by more aftermarket keycap manufacturers than any other keyboard "standard" in the world.
  • Fleeb - Monday, June 13, 2016 - link

    "Nah. Enjoy being a third-world country."

    "Question: How many countries in the world have not officially switched to the SI (International System of Units), or modern metric system?

    Answer: Three - The U.S., Liberia, and Burma. "
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Monday, June 13, 2016 - link

    "Question: Which of the following three countries, the U.S., Liberia, and Burma, are first world countries?"

    Only the U.S.

    I find it cute that third-worlders have a habit on trying to rag on the United States for something as completely trivial as a the popular units used in measurements here. Did you know you can type "160 lbs in kg" in Google and it'll automatically calculate that answer for you? As a US citizen, I know that the math involving measurements is the exact same regardless of which units you use; If I need to transform the units to something else, that's just one extra step after the calculation to get it to whatever units I happen to need.

    It doesn't matter if it's megabytes/second to megabits/second, feet to meters, etc. It literally takes less than 10 seconds to transform any measurement from any units to another set of units that's needed for the job.

    Oh, and enjoy being a third-world country.
  • MamiyaOtaru - Sunday, June 12, 2016 - link

    unlikely.
  • azrael- - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Steelseries Apex M500 ...or perhaps rather the Steelseries 6Gv3. Honestly, there's not much separating this keyboard from the 6Gv2 apart from the backlight.

    Also, the Apex M800 was the first (and hitherto only) mechanical keyboard from Steelseries which does *not* use Cherry MX keys. They've made several mechanical keyboards, the 6G, 7G and the aforementioned 6Gv2 (in at least two iterations). All these keyboards have met with high acclaim.

    There's also nothing "unknown" about the origin of the keys on the Apex M800. They're a custom design from Kailh, better known for copying Cherry MX keys.

    And lastly I'm sure you meant that the high price et al of the M800 *didn't* do Steelseries any favor. From what I've learned it's rather the large size of the keyboard and (especially) the custom sized spacebar, in addition to the high price, that turns off potential buyers. The keyboard itself should be very comfortable to use and also be very fast (cue hardcore/professional gamers) due to short travel time of the keys. Something which Corsair in conjunction with Cherry have just tried to emulate with the "Rapidfire" Cherry MX Speed keys. And apparently the M800 is also the quietest mechanical keyboard on the market.

    Sorry for all the nitpicking, but the background information in this review doesn't seem very well researched.
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    >Steelseries Apex M500 ...or perhaps rather the Steelseries 6Gv3. Honestly, there's not much separating this keyboard from the 6Gv2 apart from the backlight.

    More to it than that, bro.

    1) They removed the bottom left "Win" key for a "Steelseries" modifier key, used for volume and media controls. Most people who use the "Win" key for commands use the "Win" key on the left. ("Win" + Up = Maximize Window, "Win" + D to minimize everything to show Desktop, "Win" + X to show Mobility Center for common laptop functions, etc)

    2) Windows key disabling as an option, rather than a "feature".

    3) First actual ANSI mechanical keyboard offered.

    4) Blue steel frame for blue-themed aesthetics and for evening out the glow from the blue LED backlighting reflecting from beneath the keycaps.

    5) Red vs older Black switches.

    6) Full N-Key Rollover/No Ghosting over USB. The older 6G v2 only supported 6 keys + modifier keys over USB and No Ghosting only via PS/2.

    It's a pretty different keyboard, bro.
  • azrael- - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    Most people would call this a new iteration, bro. Although not necessarily a good one ...or even a necessary one, for that matter. You do realize that the 6Gv2 also came with Cherry MX Reds, right? And what's with that obsession with the ANSI layout?
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Saturday, June 11, 2016 - link

    Because aftermarket keycaps are most commonly made in the ANSI layout.

    Only third-world countries use any other standard.
  • Findecanor - Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - link

    Will you please stop acting like a child, JoeyJoJo123!
  • JoeyJoJo123 - Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - link

    Only when ignorance from non-US countries stop spouting nonsense about why people would actually want ANSI layout keyboards vs their preferred ISO layout keyboards, on a US based website, no less.

    Nobody was dismissing nationalities until non-US posters decided to throw the "You use imperial units, rather than metric units!" and "ISO is the world layout, not ANSI!" memes around. I can play that game, too, by throwing the "You're all third-world countries" meme back at them.

    It was and still is my personal opinion that an ANSI layout keyboard is a welcome change, particularly when it comes to sourcing custom keycap sets.
  • Schliessmeister - Friday, June 10, 2016 - link

    The polyhedral design of the underside is not due to aesthetics. This kind of design provides significantly more torsional stiffnes than a flat sheet metal of same thickness.

    Regards, Flo
  • TomSal74 - Wednesday, June 15, 2016 - link

    How do other people use their keyboards....I never thought I needed "torsional stiffness" in a keyboard before...:)
  • pencea - Monday, June 13, 2016 - link

    It's been over two weeks and yet still no review for the GTX 1080, while other major sites have already posted their reviews of both 1070 & 1080.
  • BigBdBen - Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - link

    Quote: "Until recently, the company has been offering just one mechanical keyboard, the Apex M800 with their own custom QS1 switches."

    needs to be corrected in the article, to reflect that both the 6Gv2 (6G) and the 7G mechanical keyboards came before the Apex Series... JM2€ents...

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