Testing a Chinese x86 CPU: A Deep Dive into Zen-based Hygon Dhyana Processors
by Dr. Ian Cutress & Wendell Wilson on February 27, 2020 9:00 AM ESTOur Hygon Systems
8-core Dhyana and Dual 32-core Dhyana Plus
The full range of Hygon’s known releases boils down to two platforms: one containing a single 8-core Zen 1 die, similar to the desktop range of processors (or EPYC 3000), and a set of server processors built from four dies in a similar arrangement to Naples.
The 8-core engineering sample system we have in to test didn’t provide any exact SKU numbering – on the CPU it says ‘C86’ which is meant to imply ‘Chinese x86’. The rest of the numbering is likely linked to the wafer and batch that this silicon came from, however we do not have decoder rings for those.
The motherboard uses a microATX form factor, and is very much a server motherboard with the DDR4 slots horizontal rather than vertical in order to direct airflow through the system in a server chassis. Starting primarily with the socket, what we have is a non-socketed BGA design, such that this CPU cannot be upgraded because it is bonded to the motherboard, similar to what we see with laptops and embedded systems. The mounting holes are the thing that surprises me here – these are not the AM4 mounting holes that we typically see with the consumer version of Ryzen, but these mounting holes are Intel mounting holes. Someone must have a lot of old Intel coolers around, I guess? Either that or it makes it easier for Hygon’s partners to find specific server grade coolers.
The CPU has a six-phase power delivery system, and as this is a pure CPU product, there is no integrated graphics. There is a form of 2D graphics provided by the IPMI controller in the bottom left, the classic ASPEED AST2500 chip that we commonly see in server systems. Unlike other microATX motherboards, there isn’t the typical four slot design here, but a three slot design, with two full length PCIe 3.0 slots (capable of x16/x0 or x8/x8) and an open ended PCIe x4 slot.
Normally these CPUs don’t really need a chipset because they have some SoC level IO functionality on the silicon, though consumer Ryzen CPUs were paired with X370 chipsets when the Ryzen 1000 family first launched. Instead of using those chipsets, Hygon has paired the CPU with a Lattice Semiconductor FPGA to act as a chipset of sorts. This gives the motherboard an odd set of combined IO, including SATA ports, four dual LED displays, a number of custom connectors and buttons, and a lot of undocumented things we don’t know. For example, there appears to be two batteries on the motherboard – one presumably to keep the onboard time, but the other seems more permanent and is not obvious why it is there.
Here’s the motherboard where we’ve put an equivalent AM4 consumer Ryzen CPU on top, to show the size.
By comparison, the dual socket server is a bit of a beast. As we understand it, these servers were built for both compute and storage, with each CPU paired with four breakout connectors capable of four U.2 drives or 16-way SATA connectivity. The CPUs have eight channel memory capabilities, but due to a couple of reasons we had to test them in quad channel mode.
The CPUs in this case also say C86, but also have the model number 7185 on them, indicating a 32-core CPU. The carry case is red, whereas Naples EPYC CPUs were blue, Threadripper CPUs are orange, and Rome EPYC CPUs are green. The red might be a nod to the Chinese angle for these CPUs, however no-one we spoke to was able to confirm this.
The server is actually a Sugon design, with 12 front panel 2.5-inch drive slots. For the 8-core system, that was put into a standard desktop case and fitted with a CPU cooler. Both systems were tested though remote desktop access, as Wendell was hosting them in his labs in Kentucky while I’m all the way back in London.
When trying to probe the CPUs, CPU-Z didn’t seem to have much of a clue. The software provided this interface on the 8-core consumer, showing a 3.2 GHz frequency, but only one core, and no other details aside from support for AVX, AVX2, and FMA3. For the server CPUs, CPU-Z failed to run at all. What we were able to determine is that the software thought that every core was a separate socket, and it appears that some of the usual ways to access this data on the AMD consumer CPUs have all been changed here for the Hygon models, either to evade detection using usual methods, or to conform to different standards. One interesting note is that while CPU-Z detected AVX and AVX2, some of our software couldn’t, and we had to revert to SSE detection in order to get that software to even run.
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Lord of the Bored - Friday, February 28, 2020 - link
It is still pretty dang clear: AMD Zen core goes in, China Zen core comes out. I don't think anyone didn't realize what AMD was doing, particularly as they crippled the processor.The convoluted part-ownership scheme is because AMD can't sublicense their x86 license due to an ancient settlement with Intel. So they need to maintain >half ownership to keep Intel from suing them.
sing_electric - Friday, February 28, 2020 - link
I know people that review these deals. They are smart and they aren't naive. That doesn't make them infallible, of course, but they are competent and take their job seriously.It seems to me that you've got it backwards: This ownership structure was set up *specifically* to meet Chinese requirements for "made in China" certification (which the central government is really pushing pretty hard) while actually making as little in China as possible - even shipping dies to China for packaging.
Mikewind Dale - Thursday, February 27, 2020 - link
Also, even if AMD *did* give IP to China, it's AMD's IP to give. It's not stealing if the owner gives it away. And it's not a betrayal of the USA, since the USA is supposed to be a free-market country that protects individual rights and liberties. If anyone is betraying the USA, it's the US federal government, since the US federal government would be violating Americans' rights and liberties by prohibiting voluntary market transactions (such as exports).sonny73n - Friday, February 28, 2020 - link
“ Lisa Su committed treason by exporting high tech IP to an enemy country“I don’t understand why the US has so many sick psychopaths who see everyone as enemy. I wonder if they also see you as an enemy, do you think you would still be here spouting hate right now?
TheinsanegamerN - Friday, February 28, 2020 - link
The chinese see themselves as above all other cultures, and are not only extremely racist towards those who ar enot chinese, but also employ methods such as concentration camps and "reeducation" facilities against those of certian religious and ethic backgrounds.but sure, prattle on about how hateful the US is.
PeachNCream - Friday, February 28, 2020 - link
Don't assign the actions of the Chinese government to the people living in China in a broader sense. That is unfair to average people that are, just by nature of birth and physical location, part of the population you are giving the blanket title of racist. It's just as bad as calling everyone from Alabama a pickup truck owning, gun-brandishing redneck when we know quite well that there are reasonable, decent people living there that have to spend time contending with that label on a daily basis.yannigr2 - Friday, February 28, 2020 - link
Trying to find the wrongs to others, is just an excuse to hide your wrongs.Look, they (Chinese) are worst that us (Americans).
Don't expect much support with that kind of logic. The lesser evil is not good.
sonny73n - Saturday, February 29, 2020 - link
“ The chinese see themselves as above all other cultures, and are not only extremely racist towards those who ar enot chinese, ”The first letter of any national should be capital. You’re a disrespectful person.
China has thousands of years old culture. If I’m a Chinese, I would be proud of it. And there’s nothing wrong if they see themselves above other cultures because it’s the fact.
They might be racists but who isn’t? If you’re talking about extreme racist, you should talk about Americans.
“ employ methods such as concentration camps and "reeducation" facilities against those of certian religious and ethic backgrounds.”
The US don’t need re-education facilities. MSM have been feeding BS to you since the day you were born. And it seems you did very good gobbling down all the BS. Now you’re only spouting fouls since you’re incapable of having any critical thinking.
You’re trying to say that you like most of the psychopaths in the US aren’t hateful but your comment shows that you are. Accusation without proof is the worst form of hatred you can give. Or maybe you’re just too stupid and lazy to find out the truth. So it’s much easier to repeat what CNN says.
Lord of the Bored - Saturday, February 29, 2020 - link
Comrade sonny73n, you say "accusation without proof is the worst form of hatred" immediately after calling all americans psychopaths withut proof. You undermine your own argument, and the party expects better of you.s.yu - Sunday, March 1, 2020 - link
>And there’s nothing wrong if they see themselves above other cultures because it’s the fact.Wow, I can't imagine anybody other than a modern Red Guard(they're popping up here and there under Xi in case some people haven't noticed) saying this.
These people hail the Party's words as gospel, blatantly disregarding the massive rift between the Party's words and actions, made possible only by the sore lack of accountability, in turn an inevitability stemming from the authoritarian and dictatorial nature of the regime. One proof of this is that in China you almost never win a lawsuit against the government, and you literally never win a lawsuit that leads to reforms in legislation, regardless of how the government tramples over its own laws to infringe on your rights. "Legal order" in China largely exists as excuses to prosecute the insubordinate. There's even statistics on the citation of legal code during lawsuits in China, and a conclusion was that ~90% of clauses have almost never been cited in practice, because they're effectively inapplicable.
>If I’m a Chinese, I would be proud of it.
This isn't outright denying that he's Chinese though.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
March 1st is the first day of a new round of crackdowns on flow of information in China, just more excuses to frame you with.
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&s...
Yesterday though I personally witnessed a new mindfuck trick of the Party before my own eyes: if you try to upload an image to Wechat chat groups, it will be OCR'ed simultaneously, and if for whatever reason that meets whatever censorship standard your image is determined to be "sensitive", then it will meet one of at least four fates:
1. Fake upload: You thought you uploaded it, Wechat tells you that it's successfully sent, yet nobody in the group but you could see it.
2. Repost ban: The long press option of repost would be removed from an image.
3. Fake repost: People in the group you uploaded to could see it, but if you repost it to another group(which does not require another upload), it becomes invisible to people in that second group.
4. This is the good one: Within the same chat group, an image uploaded is only visible to certain people, and hidden from others!!
I'd known the first two for quite a while, and discovered the last two yesterday, but the last one really throws a wrench into any serious discussion, especially regarding content that's wiped out from within the wall in the first place.
I'm 100% certain of what I saw because regarding the fake repost issue, I was able to upload, and successfully repost an image(screenshot of a banned article) with a heavy gaussian blur, but the original was only visible to the initial group. Regarding the last issue, a guy uploaded three images, while I only saw two, and he tried uploading the missing one again, but it was still invisible to me, but all three were visible to the uploader himself and another guy in the chat group, so it's no glitch, it's intentional.
I don't believe this was related to the March 1st regulations, it was most likely in place before that. The exact impact of this new legislation remains to be seen.